Gah!

[altivo]

We wondered on Wednesday why the heating and cooling in the building seemed to be goofy. Well, it turns out that yesterday afternoon, entirely by chance, a coworker discovered that the large condensers for the cooling system had been vandalized. Probably on Tuesday night, someone with a large heavy cutter like a bolt cutter attacked them and cut away several large chunks of copper pipe.

Presumably this was with the intention of selling the copper for money. But I estimate that what they took probably didn't get them even $10. Of course they won't be caught, and the repairs will very likely run a couple of thousand. I swear our society is deteriorating so fast that we're all going to be sleeping on the ground and picking fleas off one another inside my own lifetime.

Comments

[calydor.livejournal.com]

I have silently been making Cassandra-predictions for the past six months or so. A lot in the past two.

I am seeing many of the people I know online in worse conditions than they are now. I see several of them homeless and jobless. Rest assured you are not one of them, though.

I don't like what I see. It is a dystopia, something right out of science fiction with a colossal gap between rich and poor.

Predictions are being made here in Denmark that if the price of oil continues to inflate at the current rate, in three years there'll be around 30% fewer cars on the roads - because people can't afford the gas. I dread what this will do to the prices of heat and power.

It seems the only reasonable way to survive is to obtain around 10-20% self sustainability. Be it a windmill for power, geothermal heating, vegetables ... I predict that within 5 to 10 years, it will not be possible to survive -at all- on minimum wage.

We are headed straight into a collapse, and the people in power are too blind to see it until they, too, are dangling over the cliff. Of course, as in all cases, by then it'll be too late.

Those are my predictions, and like Cassandras, they will go unnoticed.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I've been predicting similar stuff for a while now. Of course I don't have your detailed awareness of the situation in Denmark or Europe, but here in the US we seem to be facing a collapse of monstrous proportions.

Because US voters are now so ignorant and fearful, they fear any change more than the potential disaster in the offing. Hence they re-elected an administration dedicated to making money for the oil cartel. These are people who have a huge vested interest in NOT doing anything to improve the energy situation because their profits continue to grow by leaps and bounds as long as the status quo can be preserved.

Of course, their opponents are loons who believe that it can all be solved by using energy efficient light bulbs. Investing in alternate means of transportation for people and goods is too hard to think about...

[rustitobuck.livejournal.com]

Wait...you say that like it's a bad thing. I'd hope we'd learn to make huts and beds.

But picking bugs off each other is good primate socialization. Would we get more tribal? Be less lonely? Grow hair on our bodies again? (Theory has it that we selected less body hair because it meant fewer bugs. Probably because we stopped grooming each other.)

[hrrunka]

Sometimes it seems folks break things just for the hell of it...

[lobowolf.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone in the US could subsist on minimum wage in this part of the country (Northeastern US). The last statistics I read were that in order to be able to afford your own apartment (read that as..cheap apartment) and be able to pay all of your bills, you'd need to make at least $16.00/hr. Current the minimum wage in my state is $6.50/hr.

Those numbers are old, and do not reflect US inflation due to the weak dollar and increase in energy costs.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Jeez, I'm not sure I make much more than that these days. The after tax take home is certainly less.

It's certainly true that conditions in the US since the Reagan era have squeezed the middle class like a toothpaste tube, pushing a few into wealth and the rest into near poverty. As in so many other ways, we are becoming economically polarized into haves and have-nots on the scale of 18th century France. We even have a king with no more wit than Louis XVI had...

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I don't think most Americans could figure out how to make huts and beds. The truth is, most can't even figure out how to boil an egg. We are a society that has become entirely dependent on receiving the necessities of life in a prepared, ready-to-use form.

I do think it's a bad thing, really. But trying to do anything about it, well, that seems hopeless. The avalanche is well on its way now.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Oh absolutely, they do, and kids especially. But no, in this case it was clearly an intentional theft of the copper. There were lots more satisfying things to vandalize, like the nice crunchy aluminum fins on the condenser coils (which have been damaged before because it is so easy to bend them with a pebble or stick and write initials or obscenities on them. To get at the copper they had to shred inch-thick rubber insulation. To cut it loose they had to have some sort of long-handled cutting tool like a bolt cutter. It was cut and crushed with something like that, and just the copper was carried away.

[lobowolf.livejournal.com]

I wish I had kept a copy of that study, but yes, the gist of it was that because of the incredibly high cost of living (particularly housing) around the Boston area, it pushes the minimum living wage requirements way up. Of course, if you have a financially solvent partner who pays 50% of the living expenses, it makes things a lot easier.

It's certainly not as bad as southern California, but it's much worse than the midwest and south.

[saythename.livejournal.com]

Petty theft is stupid.

If you can, put up a webcam, they might come back, and it'd be
good fun to show the cops a nice clear photo of the thief.

Oy.

[jairus-greywolf.livejournal.com]

That's really sad. The Golden Rule for an increasing number of people is more like "Do unto others whatever you wish so long as it prospers you".

[goldenstallion.livejournal.com]

Dear Rider.

The aluminum bin at work has been stolen from several times and, in fact, a co-worker chased away and OLD couple just last weekend, who were taking aluminum to recycle. So we put a literal lid on it and locked it down.

Couple years back the owner of our company noticed stolen aluminum from the other facility and went directly to the local recycler. While he was talking to the man in charge in the office he looked out the window and pointed and said: "There it is!" as a couple guys pulled in with a trailor load of his stolen aluminum. Arrests were made. Sometimes good stuff happens.

Imperator

[altivo.livejournal.com]

California is a puzzle. I can't figure how it keeps going, the economy is so weird.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Not a good spot for a webcam. It's on a blank wall, no windows from the inside, no shelter on the outside. A good setup for that kind of theft. We have some security cameras but they cover entrances and exits of course. The police took the tapes anyway, but they won't find anything useful on them, especially since we don't know the time and it was probably dark.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yep. And we're actually teaching that attitude in our media now. Films and television are full of it, even pop music preaches it.

The really sad thing in a case like this is a failure to understand just what it is that they are doing. For a petty profit of less than $10, they did damage equal to $2000 or more. The cost of that repair comes from somewhere, ultimately everyone's pocket including their own. The damage is not even to some private corporation, but to a public facility that is available to everyone including themselves. But of course the entire concept is beyond their immature thinking.

The other part of it is that this could not have been an act of desperation. Homeless people who are starving and trying to survive by any means available do not have pickup trucks or bolt cutters at their disposal. Clever outlaws who are living "under the radar" of society might have such tools, but they have to be smarter than this in the way in which they use them because this sort of thing just isn't going to pay off well enough.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

What worries me isn't the individual incident but what it stands for. It seems to me that our society is degenerating into total chaos because of the ongoing economic collapse. And as long as things are in the control of a few wealthy individuals with Marie Antoinette's famous "Let them eat cake" attitude, it's going to keep getting worse.

[drgnkiyo.livejournal.com]

At least they didn't seem to know the in and outs of the electrical framework. For a while in Atlanta people would go through large buildings at night, kill the power, cut the ends of the wires at the outlets/switches and pull as much of the wire out as they could to sell.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

No. Actually they came darned close to cutting into a 240 volt line. That would have done a number on someone.

Copper theft isn't unknown around here, but usually it's scrap from manufacturing facilities or else spools of cable left overnight in unprotected areas. And every case I've heard of involved much larger quantities. This was just nuisance stuff, hardly enough for a recycler to even pay out for.

[soanos.livejournal.com]

I am just saddened by the human stupidity.
It never ceases to amaze me what some people are ready to do just for a few coin.

I think these people have been stealing copper before, as the bolt cutters cost more than $10.
They probably have been specifically bought for breaking into places and stealing copper.
So I think there will be more thefts soon. Might be an idea to notify people nearby to keep
an eye out for them, as they probably want to strip the whole neigbourhood from usable materials.
These are probably doing it for a living.

[soanos.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling the risk of getting caught in those areas has increased to a level they are
now targeting "smaller fish".

I have an idea... Put in a fake pipe, with 380V current going trough it.
Next morning you might see a pair of bolt-cutters welded into it. :P

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I'd love to do that. Unfortunately this spot is in a city park right next to a children's playground, so it would be a bad idea. Also, the way US lawyers and courts interpret things, if we did that then the thief could sue us for his injuries. How's that for stupid?

Small world of have-nots.

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

"I swear our society is deteriorating so fast that we're all going to be sleeping on the ground and picking fleas off one another inside my own lifetime"

*chuckles* Waaay ahead of you, Alt. Better get used to how concrete feels on your back & what it's like to sleep in dirt for days at a time >_> I give the USA 5 years tops before everyone I've ever known in my life is broke & homeless. Sorry, folks, but I've seen this coming for well over 5 years now. Even told some people... nobody seemed interested then.

In fact, I used to know a guy- a friend of a friend- who did that very same thing a couple of times, except he did it to abandoned buildings that had been sitting for months or longer, plus I think he went west, not north- I doubt it was him :P

Trust me, when you've been without money long enough- say, several years- the quick fix of $10 almost seems worth it. Not having in a world of haves and have-nots does that to a person. I had someone accuse me of becoming twisted by the very same thing recently... which didn't thrill me, to say the least.

Real.

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

It's not your imagination.... unfortunatly most people can't seem to give a rat's ass- they don't seem to realize it will affect every single person in the country, too. People are already starting to get desperate, and as far as I can see it, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad I don't have any gold fillings ^_^

nutShell(c)

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

Hence, why McCain will win. Voters- what few there still are- haven't gotten smarter... and who here thinks it's all rigged anyway? *looks for a show of hands* The Democrats haven't made enough progress from where they were to overturn the Republican stranglehold on our economy. Too little, too late. Too bad. 50 years of war and about 45 of poverty level conditions are ahead... followed probably by some kind of explosive civil war in this country (that's my guess). Poverty seems to lead to internal conflict, no?

Re: nutShell(c)

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Well, some say it will lead to an easy takeover by the Islamic fundamentalists, actually. They claim Americans will be too demoralized to prevent it, and that might be so. However, I'm not at all convinced that the Islamics are actually up to the task, which is a lot more complex and tricky than the 9/11 thing was, and requires coordinated action on many fronts at once.

Re: Small world of have-nots.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've slept (or tried to) that way plenty when camping out. That part is nothing new to me. But a lot of people will starve in short order because they know absolutely nothing about finding or preparing food. When McDonald's is gone, they'll be dead. (Not just because they won't have money to buy McD's crap food, but because McD will be closed, kaput, so they can't glean from the trash or leftovers.)

The perps in this case could not have been homeless or penniless. They drove to the spot in a pickup truck, leaving clear tracks that the police spotted immediately. They had access to costly tools to do the damage with, and fuel for the truck. Given that, the $10 or less they got for the copper doesn't even pay their expenses I'd say. Stupidity squared, or maybe even cubed.

Re: Real.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Of course some of us have been trying to make it clear for many years now that an important step to improving the situation is to stop having so many babies. Somehow those who most need to get that message just can't hear it.

Re: nutShell(c)

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* It's both funny and sad to me that the next level just beneath civilization is the moralistic attitudes portrayed in religion- I've begun to see it's the basis for the so-called "rules" people govern themselves by- and while I personally think they're clinging to a long out-moded belief system as being the "right way to live", I see no reason to point this out to them because they are the ones most likely to become "demoralized" and be willing to rob & kill people like me once their beleif systems are abolished. In short- to paraphrase Mick Jagger- those who oppose violence, "they themselves are violent, which doesn't seem to make sense"... and by that logic, those who find us Americans demoralized ought to carefully examine their own so-called "morality" and ask themselves how willing they are to control, hurt, kill others or commit suicide for their beliefs before they start casting their proverbial stones from their own glass houses.

Re: Real.

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

*snickers* Not having used contraceptives myself, I feel I've no room to stand on a soapbox here, merely to point out it would be physiologically impossible to impregnate the people I've had sex with ^_^

Re: Small world of have-nots.

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

LOL agreed. Stupidity cubed :P Maybe they had half a brain and made this but one stop on a route of idiotic series of thefts.

You definitly can see in a larger perspective than most, methinks. Garbage cans will be the first target, then abandoned businesses... then places like orange groves (in this state, especially) or anywhere food is relatively easy to steal. I'd probably move to a wooded area myself, as many of the people I seek to aviod shun the woods around here. I can use a bow well enough so I could hunt, and I'd like to belive I've dissected enough animals(blood & guts don't bother me) to dress game animals... my only concern is how to cook meat enough without charring it in the fire... any tips for that kind of thing? I probably should read up on botany to get a better idea of what plants are edible in the wild. My mom knows that stuff much better than I do, though...

BTW three of my potatoes have produced leaves now ;) one died and one's gotten too moist, but the two late bloomers are doing much better now.

Re: Real.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Maybe, though I hear there are those who want to work on making it possible. ;p

There are more than enough effective methods of birth control available today, though, for those who just keep popping out babies.

Re: Small world of have-nots.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

And we should remember, half a brain cubed is only an eighth of a brain. That explains everything. ;p

[dogteam.livejournal.com]

I think I might have mentioned before, I'm spending a good amount of time buying new electrical cable to rewire drilling rigs that have been stripped as they sit unattended. I'm bracing myself for another surge at the end of this month as the rigs start back to work after breakup...at 60k a crack for cable and labour, you'd think it would be cheaper to hire security...Hell, I'll babysit a triple for a lot less than 60k for a few months...

I don't know what's going to happen. We've contemplated (my wife and I, that is)making ourselves more self-sufficient for decades...but done essentially nothing. No good seeing the end coming; we're no better off that the ostriches that think everything will be fine (if they think about it at all).

I've even heard speculation that the people with "nothing" may be better off when we hit the wall...I other societies during times of severe famine and unrest, it's the "haves", the people that prepared, that die first. Because you can be assured that there will be people with guns that will come to take what you have. Not crazy people...just people like you and me, with children to feed and nothing at all to lose.

Sorry. I've gone a bit beyond the "broke and homeless" level of the discussion, but frankly I don't see that it will stop there...

[altivo.livejournal.com]

No need to apologize. I don't think these thieves were "broke and homeless" anyway, as I said earlier. I've heard rumors about copper theft but this incident has brought in all sorts of anecdotes. It's really hard for me to believe that our society has already crumbled so badly, but obviously it's so. Here I've been ranting about lawless yuppies driving like reckless idiots, when there's far worse going on and being kept quiet evidently.

I'm told that thieves have stripped entire buildings of their internal wiring over a weekend. Just cut off the power and pull the lines out of the conduits. If you've mentioned your experiences before, I missed it. I can see how an unguarded drilling rig would invite all sorts of theft, but under the winter conditions up there, it still can't be easy. These are not petty thieves or inexperienced homeless people.

The price of copper in the US has been falling, interestingly enough. Not a free fall, but a steady decline.

Re: Real.

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

Women are the ones popping out babies. The first step IMO to changing things is admitting who's not taking responsibility for their actions before we make it one more thing males can be blamed for. Universally, this is impossible.

My next thought is women are too strict and restrictive as parents, and seem increasingly incapable of even being willing to make an effort to raise the offspring they "pop" into the world. They seem to more and more desire to emulate their ideal of men to the point of completely abandoning the role of mother, caregiver and nuturer in favor of an insecure, domineering competitiveness laced with presumtuous attitudes to all those who do not share their ambition, combined with a deep seated insecurity about themselves soo deeply buried they are completely unaware of it. Some call this empowerment, failing to even question wether the concept of "power" or "empowerment" even exist, yet alone things that can be attained.

My next thought is the transformation of these women is endemic of the direction civilization as a whole has taken, and that females are merely the most obviously affected- perhaps because they are more susceptible due to either their upbringing or culturalization outside of the home- but the point is, humans now vie for every single "thing" (even immaterial privileges) like dogs fighting for scraps of meat. An example I saw just as I was sitting down to use this computer... a middle-aged woman used a verbally harsh tone of voice on a homeless man because he had signed in for a computer she had decided she wanted; there were several around available and he had signed in before her, but she had the thought she HAD to have one in particular. Even in the rulings of societys, he was to come first, but SHE had to have HER way, only to consent once she learned he was before her on the list. But homeless people are wiser to the ways of society because they have seen its other sides beyond mere competitveness- he acquiesced and allowed her to "have her way" because he knew if he showed aggression, he would play into society's "male trap", and would quickly be not only escorted from the premesis, but banned from returning again...perhaps even arrested. The woman- playing the role of passive, supportive member of society- would not only get the computer, but probably even an apology from the staff for the man's "rudeness". This is what women are using society for these days. This is my thought. Women and societys are deeply entwined, perhaps even entangled- neither maintaining any integrity, merely conforming to the binding process and feeding parasitically off each other.

My thought is men have gotten wiser, women have gotten twisted. Therefore, perhaps it WOULD be better if males started having children, and females were sidestepped entirely. Heh, funny how my mind works, eh? ;)

Re: Real.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Um, no?

It still takes two people, one male, one female, to make a baby. The man is every bit as responsible for the result as the woman is. Society often makes it easy for the male to duck out on that responsibility, but that doesn't change the fact that he IS responsible.

Yes, we have a lot of bad cultural issues about this, especially the one where women see their sole source of personal value based on their status as mother of many children. But ultimately, that "twisted" situation as you put it, is still partly or largely the responsibility of men as well. Men are the ones who have kept women in that position in both western and Asian civilization, for hundreds of years.

Re: Real. Clashes. Conflicts. Are mine.

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

Ah, a battle of principles. I base mine one firsthand experiences. My posts stem from them. I'm getting better at seeing things out of my once deeply demonizing illsuionary world... thus it is becoming easier to respond to this in a more appropo manner...

"It still takes two people, one male, one female, to make a baby. The man is every bit as responsible for the result as the woman is. Society often makes it easy for the male to duck out on that responsibility, but that doesn't change the fact that he IS responsible."

My thought here is, society encourages this as a way to us men to further the cycle, then discard them entirely. Beyond that, I can think of many men who are fathers that while absentee from their familes for a variety of reasons, still care and pay to support their offspring- as a matter of fact, the guy I mentioned is one such person. His wife makes him pay child support despite having remarried while he became homeless AND a drunk. His habit could be linked with his guilt at failing to make himself the husband she wanted.

"Men are the ones who have kept women in that position in both western and Asian civilization, for hundreds of years."

I've heard that, but I think that's less a factor today, and it is current times I'm speaking of. I cannot account for the acts of million of men for hundreds of thousands of years... nor deny some have done horrible things. Do two wrongs make a right? Frankly, I would prefer less people in general. Quality over quantity.

Re: Real. Clashes. Conflicts. Are mine.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Oh I'd prefer a smaller population as well. But the truth is, capitalism demands constant population growth because it increases the pool of consumers and also the pool of cheap labor. Keeping women in line is as much a part of that as it is a part of Islam. The real reason that abortion is so despised lies in that: it represents a rebellion on the part of women against the dominance of men. Roman Catholicism likewise clings to attitudes and dogma that perpetuates the idea that a woman is subservient to men and must do whatever they ask, including cranking baby after baby. This stuff has not changed in modern times. Sure you see a few women and fewer men who have managed to rise above it, but for the general population, it is still the same as it was centuries or millennia past.

It has been said that "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament" rather than a sacrilege. And that is definitely true. If George W. Bush had a disease that could be cured by stem cells, he'd suddenly lose his inhibitions about those too.

Re: Real capitalism= pyramid scheme

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

Wow, well said. The Islam connection was an excellent example. But then I'm confused- since we're discussing this now, does this:

A: Make us enemies of America *snickers*

B: Mean religion is a mere culturalization tool used to manipulate the general public for no other reason than the "good of the whole"?

C: Mean we've completely managed to avoid getting huffy about our different ideas and can't turn this into childish bickering in order to reaffirm our views? :P

D: Mean America is trapped in the theory of capitalism with no means of revolution outside of civil war?

E: Mean based on assumption B that Bush will get away with what he's done to us with absolutely no reprecussions unless his fellow Texans decide abitrarily lynch him for not making their state a separate country?

F: Mean in order to continue capitalism the ultimate goal is to get every paying man, women and child living on this continent?

G: Is there no question I can ask you don't have a good answer for? :P (had to throw that in... I'm running out...)

Re: Real capitalism= pyramid scheme

[altivo.livejournal.com]

A: [Does discussing this] Make us enemies of America? *snickers*
In the eyes of some narrow-minded people, yes, it does. Those are the people who have forgotten that one of the basic tenets of the Declaration of Independence is the idea that disagreeing with the policies of the government (or the majority) is not in itself treasonous.

B: Mean religion is a mere culturalization tool used to manipulate the general public for no other reason than the "good of the whole"?
Make that "the good of the ruling class" and I'll agree.

C: Mean we've completely managed to avoid getting huffy about our different ideas and can't turn this into childish bickering in order to reaffirm our views? :P
Yes.

D: Mean America is trapped in the theory of capitalism with no means of revolution outside of civil war?
I hope not. Unfortunately, though, it does mean that changing all this is not going to be easy, nor will it be quick and painless.

E: Mean based on assumption B that Bush will get away with what he's done to us with absolutely no reprecussions unless his fellow Texans decide abitrarily lynch him for not making their state a separate country?
I'm afraid so. Even Richard Nixon ultimately got away with what he did. So did Ronald Reagan. (And O.J. Simpson, but that's a different matter.)

F: Mean in order to continue capitalism the ultimate goal is to get every paying man, women and child living on this continent?
I admit I don't understand this question, but yes, capitalism requires absolute control of various things just as any other economic system does.

G: Is there no question I can ask you don't have a good answer for? :P (had to throw that in... I'm running out...
I'm sure there are quite a few. Not only that, but you have the background and experience to find them if you think about it.

Re: Real capitalism= pyramid scheme

[gabrielhorse.livejournal.com]

All satisfactory answers... I prefer truth and all the baggage it brings over sugar-coated crap.

[cabcat.livejournal.com]

People actually steal copper o.O That's just bizarre, people used to steal lead pipping in the 60's in London but stealing Copper in the 2000's ??

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Apparently it's becoming a widespread thing here, especially in the south. I hear that whole buildings have been stripped of their wiring over a weekend. They also steal copper wires right off the utility poles, and there are cases of thieves crawling under cars in parking lots and cutting the catalytic converters loose to sell for scrap.

[cabcat.livejournal.com]

But the amount of work involved for the return can't be any good.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

That's what I would expect, even with the commodity price of copper where it is, just under $4 a pound. That price is artificially high, too, due to speculation and futures trading by the yuppie parasite investment crowd.

[cabcat.livejournal.com]

Still I wonder if it could be used to replace old dodgy copper wiring. Hmmm anywhere about that needs wiring replaced?

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Actually, here in the US I understand that theft of copper wire from the old telegraph poles that follow many railroad right of ways has been an issue. This is especially bad when the railroad has converted some of those lines to signaling use. The wire used back then was very thick and heavy, so there's a lot of copper in it and the weight adds up in a hurry. Many railroad lines run through pretty desolate territory where thieves can predict the times of passing trains and avoid being spotted until it's too late.

[cabcat.livejournal.com]

I find the activity rather pathetic, surely they'd earn more doing something else? Even basic work.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Generally these would be the kind of people who are unwilling to report for any kind of job on a regular schedule. As in, the money from selling scrap copper goes to buy drugs or booze.