Filly probably for sale, though reluctantly

[altivo]

Dawn (Cherokee Dawn FB, one year old in this photo) is home again. The trainers brought her back Monday evening, and she is much improved. I can't begrudge the cost, which was extremely reasonable. Their assessment: "She is a sweet horse without a mean bone in her body. She never kicked at anyone, never bit, and wants to do the right thing. She is very smart and learns quickly, but will also easily learn bad habits if allowed to do so." The one thing they didn't succeed in doing was getting her to socialize with older mares. She just didn't understand the pecking order thing, and kept trying to still be a baby when the mares insisted she was grown up now and would have to take her proper subordinate place. They kept trying to beat her up, and John kept rescuing her from the pasture as a result.

However, Dawn is still very strong willed. It takes a strong and patient hand to deal with her. I can barely do it when she is in a stubborn mood. My partner, who is less experienced with horses and less committed to them, has problems with it. I can't blame him, nor can I choose Dawn over him. I can't be here all the time, and that means at least occasionally he has to move her from one place to another or do grooming tasks for her. Yesterday afternoon she dragged him by the lead rope in her eagerness to get to the grass and rope burned his hands.

She is a bright and promising two year old. Registered Haflinger of excellent stock on both sides, with potential as either a riding or driving horse. She is smart and agile enough to learn Western style reining or cutting, and will be a good size for that, probably 14.3 hh. She has already demonstrated rudimentary jumping ability as well, and could go English with the proper training. I want her to have a good and loving home with someone who appreciates her and can develop her talents. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that home can be here.

I'd like to know for sure where she is going, but if I can't find a place for her by the end of the summer, she will have to be auctioned. That is a very frightening and depressing prospect.

Comments

[murakozi.livejournal.com]

I know that's a tough decision to make. With her bloodlines and attitude, though, you could probably find a buyer for her fairly quickly.

I'm surprised she doesn't understand the hierarchy thing yet. Usually, once they no longer have mom to hide behind, they learn the ropes pretty quickly. The fact that she's pushy with your partner kind of makes it seem she thinks she outranks him. It almost makes me wonder whether she just 'learned' at some point that if she stands there taking a beating, some human will come rescue her.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I suspect in some ways she thinks she is lead mare. And her answer to everything else is "I'm a baby, don't pick on me." Part of it is that here at home we have only three other horses. They all let her be the baby and do whatever she wanted to. Her mom, my Tess, is generally very sweet and cooperative with humans, and quite insistent on her own place with other horses. But she never disciplined her foal at all. Spoiled rotten is what Dawn was.

With partner or myself, I don't think it is a rank thing. She really doesn't understand rank at all. Rather it is just willfulness and lack of discipline, and he at least is too lightweight to control her by brute force. The trainer we sent her to outweighs me and among other things, works as a farrier with heavy draft horses, so he can just hold onto a lead and make her calm down. I can manage, if I keep 100% of my attention on her so that I react instantly if she starts to bolt or something. I know she'll get better in time, if she gets the time and effort invested in her, but I can't risk my partner's safety for her.

Here in the midwest, the market prices for horses are very low. I don't expect to get a good price for her. I'm more concerned that she go to someone who can help her fulfill her potential and that she doesn't end up at the slaughter house in DeKalb.

[murakozi.livejournal.com]

I kinda bit my tounge in my response and didn't mention spoiled. Not knowing her or anything, it could've been incorrect, though she kind of sounds that way. I also didn't want to give the impression I disapproved of how she was raised or anything.

Growing up with other foals and a mother who isn't too overprotective is a good thing for young'uns. They learn how equine society works. Unfortunately, it's not the environment a lot of them get to grow up in anymore.

Hopefully your partner can work on being a bit more firm with her, so that she'll recognize she can't get away with stuff. It's not easy, but it can be done. The longer things go on as they are, the harder it will be to affect change.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yes, she is spoiled. There's no other word for it. Her six weeks at the trainer took some of it out of her, but she recognizes us and where she is and is trying to go right back to her old bad behavior.

That my partner should suddenly become more able to stand up to her is unlikely. He was very badly shaken four years ago when the team he was driving ran away with him and he wasn't able to regain control. They went on either side of a tree, destroying wagon and harness but by sheer luck he was bounced free and not seriously hurt. Neither horse was hurt either, it was almost miraculous.

But he has no confidence now. He refuses to ride or drive again, and has demoted himself to caretaker. Oddly, he handles the team that did it with great affection every day and does not fear them as long as he is on the ground. He is less comfortable with my mare, though she is really well behaved. And though he was the one who spoiled the foal with treats and petting when she was small, he is now terrified of her. Because I have to work full time and he is retired, he has done much of the animal care here. Obviously, this isn't going to work with Dawn.

It breaks my heart to dump her, because with her present attitude she is at risk of abuse or worse. But I can't have my partner hurt.

[calydor.livejournal.com]

I am not sure what to say here. There are many things I should say, but this being as static a medium as text can ever be, I will wait until I see you online so we can talk about it instead.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

Haffies tend to sell rather well over here. We had four of them come to us in the summer in 2003, all of them cheeky, chunky and classy. Three are still with us, one mare owned by a young girl, a gelding owned by another young lady and the other mare on the riding school. The other gelding was sold off-site and is now somewhere in the area, but I can't remember where.

They were sold for £3500 each.

When they arrived, all of them were around 4 years old. Bruce and Wilma (still with us) are tough little buggers - Wilma has broken the yard manager's collar bone before now, and broken another member of staff's ankle by crushing them into concrete walls, and Bruce used to bolt when out hacking. That was when they first came, and have since calmed down a lot and learned a little respect for humans. I used to ride Wilma a fair bit: she's only 14.1hh, but it took most of my height and weight advantage to get the little bitch to listen at first. :P

Anyway, the point is that based on all of the Haffies that I've seen, manners seem to take more time to develop than in other breeds. Persistance is key with them, more so than usual, and clear instruction early on helps so much later on. As for stupid behaviour, like dragging people around and burning their hands, wear gloves and stand your ground with her. ^)^

I worry about your partner getting squished, though, if he's not so used to dealing with troublesome horses. Perhaps you could help him with that?

In the end, Dawn sounds like a wonderful pony, with buckets of personality and spirit. With a little luck, finding a good home for her in your time frame should be easy. I wonder, just out of interest, what you expect to get for her? You can tell me to sod off if this is too personal. x.x

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Those are amazing prices. Unless the horses had a string of show ribbons and rock solid training (unlikely in a four year old here) there is simply no way they would go for that much.

We bought our team of geldings six years ago for $2500 (for the pair). They were seven years old, fully trained as a team, with experience both in show driving and real life logging.

I bought my mare two and half years ago and paid more than I really should have, $3000, because I wanted a solid riding horse, which she is. She was seven at the time, and had born three foals. She was also in foal at the time of sale, to a noted sire, Wincrest NF. She works both Western and English, and is green broke to drive single though I haven't pursued that at all. Neither she nor her offspring had any show record when I bought her, but her lineage is filled with noted names.

It is typical for yearling Haflingers to sell for about $600 to $750 at auction here. Two year olds, which Dawn is now, go for a little more, $1200 perhaps $1500 if they look particularly impressive. Being essentially untried except possibly in halter shows, it is rare for them to bring more, and sometimes they fetch a lot less. Except in a limited circle, the Haflinger is not a well-known breed here. And the current "fashion" is for big hunter-jumper warmblood types, so much so that Thoroughbred-Shire crossbreds are selling green broke for much higher prices. Western riders, who are used to valuing smaller horses, don't know the breed and tend to stick to their familiar Appaloosas, Paints, or Quarter Horses.

I'd consider myself lucky to get $1200 US for Dawn, especially if I knew she was going where she'd get the attention she needs. I'd take less for the security of knowing she was safe and would still have a chance in life. She is potential show material, if handled correctly. But I am not an experienced trainer, nor am I really a show competitor.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

This is Rip-Off Britain, remember? Everything here is overpriced and undervalued. x.x

You could always export her the the United Kingdom - it would certainly increase her sale value - but dealing with US and UK export/import regulations for live animals and paying for the export license would, in this case, make the idea unworkable.

In my local area, over the past few years there's been an explosion in demand for cobby-type horses. Well-built, strong but dependable - perfect for both beginner and intermediate riders. The cream of the cob lot even make it high up into the BSJA (British Showjumping Association), once the exclusive grazing ground of the warmbloods. At my yard, I can think of two BSJA affiliated cobs that have won at least 600GPB in prize money in the past two years.

Still, money aside, it is rare to find an owner that would be willing to accept less money for the assurance of a good and loving home. For that, you have my deepest admiration and respect.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Still, money aside, it is rare to find an owner that would be willing to accept less money for the assurance of a good and loving home. For that, you have my deepest admiration and respect.

This girl is MY child. Never mind that I had no hand in her breeding, she was born here. I stood over her when she was an hour old encouraging her to nurse, I struggled to keep her feet clean and her naval disinfected. She has turned out physically beautiful (I need to post a current picture, will have to get some anyway in order to advertise her.) She needs time and patience though before she will be mature and trustworthy.

This afternoon I gave her a light grooming. Her mane was all tangles, she is shedding like crazy. I was not hurting her in the least, but she tried repeatedly to cowkick me and to crush me against the tie post. I gave her some exercise in polite walking on a lead, since she still seems to need that. She never bolted, but she kept trying to nip me when I turned in a direction she didn't want to go.

It's extremely discouraging. And if I'm saying that, I certainly understand how my partner feels about it.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

*shrugs* This time of a horse's can be as frustrating for us as it is for them. As I said earlier, perserverance is be all you need, and you'll get where you want to be with her. Her lack of manners is a concern, though. As much as I hate to be overbearing with horses, there comes a point when safety must come first. I can't tell you when that it - you will have to decide for yourself - but be careful.

[calydor.livejournal.com]

You took the words right out of my mouth, here. There comes a time where the only proper response is a hard smack over her neck or rump, or wherever else you're standing. I've had to do that a few times with Linda, and I lost count of the smacks Diana got when she was at her worst. The point is, though, smack only ONCE, wait a few seconds, and if she stops, gently rub her in the same spot. It works. This is, unfortunately, all the experience I have with dealing with bad manners.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

*nods* It is the same with human children. No matter how much you might love your kids, when they do something terrible and refuse to listen to you repeatedly, a smack is a clear way of expressing your disapproval. Not a beating, not a punch or a slap on the face - then you've crossed from discipline to cruelty - although, sometimes, trainers and owners seem to get that line blurred. x.x

[dakhun.livejournal.com]

Maybe she has an AB fetish? (adult baby) ;-)
And the other horses are fursecuting her.

Jokes aside though, I find it fascinating just how much depth of personality horses must have, and how much that affects their bahaviour, given what you've described. It is not something that would occur to someone like me, who has never dealt with them.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I find it fascinating just how much depth of personality horses must have

Indeed they do. Scientists who study such things usually rank the horse's intelligence as somewhere below the dog and cat but above all the other domestic animals with the exception of the pig. I'm inclined to differ with them somewhat, because I believe their scales are tilted in favor of carnivore behavior. I'd place the horse on nearly equal footing with the dog, once we make allowance for the differences between a carnivorous/scavenging pack animal and a grazing herd animal.

Anyway, they have distinct personalities. Take our two geldings, for instance. They differ in age by only a couple of weeks. They have the same father but different mothers. Being Haflingers, they look almost alike (Asher has straighter hair in his mane and tail, Archie's blaze is narrower and has a little twist at the bottom.) But they don't think alike. Archie is a schemer and sometimes a troublemaker. He's more timid, especially about "strange" things, but still quicker at figuring them out. You can sometimes actually see the wheels turning in his head as he considers something. Asher, on the other hand, is a stereotypical fall guy. The not quite smart enough sidekick who will stick his nose into the water to see if it's too hot to drink or whatever. But Asher is open, friendly, and accepting. He displays affection for almost anyone and willingly cooperates with you once he knows what you want of him.