Grr! Why I hate cars...

[altivo]

Went out yesterday morning to go grocery shopping. Flat tire. Well, this one has been slowly losing air for at least a couple of months. I've been topping it up weekly and putting off doing anything about it. The vehicle has been plagued with this problem for a couple of years now. Last fall I put four new tires on hoping to resolve it, even though the existing ones only had 66000 miles on them. They were, after all, eight years old. I don't do a huge amount of driving, only what I have to.

I've concluded that the wheel rims themselves are leaky, and debated whether to put inner tubes into the tires or replace the wheels. Rust is the culprit, from the stupid quantities of salt dumped on city streets in this area. In Chicago the salt drifts are often deeper than the snow was, all because everyone believes Jane Byrne won her election when the Bilandic administration didn't respond effectively to a blizzard back in 1979. (As if salt were a cure for snow. It just makes slush of it.) Anyway, I've been trying to convince myself to trade the vehicle (1997 Jeep Cherokee Sport) for something more efficient but I'm reluctant to give it up. I like the 4 wheel drive in winter, and it has adequate headroom for me.

It was 9:45 am when I found the problem. I could put off the grocery expedition, but was supposed to meet people for lunch in Woodstock at noon. I have a full-sized spare tire, and we have good tire changing tools in the barn (better than the chintzy ones they give you in a vehicle these days, anyway.) So I went hunting for the good jack, a jackstand, and the big + shaped tire iron. Took longer to find them than I liked, but eventually I had them in hand. It occurred to me that I might delay the whole thing if the tire would hold air for even a day or so, and I got the cordless air pump too. No luck. It was leaking as fast as I could pump air into it. Must have run over a nail or something.

Loosened the lug nuts a half turn, hunted for a suitable jack point (there are none on the driver's side front, apparently the engineers didn't think you'd ever get a flat tire there), blocked the right rear, raised the bad tire and removed the lug nuts. Text book case. Except.... the wheel won't come off.

Third time with this vehicle. Apparently it takes less than six months for the wheels to literally weld themselves to the brake rotors or drums under ordinary road conditions. The Chrysler dealer has remarked on how difficult it is to get the wheels off, and in fact I caught them once charging me for a tire rotation that they didn't actually perform because they couldn't get the wheels off. I went back and made them do it, marking the wheels secretly so I could tell for sure that it was done. They said they greased the wheels to prevent it from happening again. Six months later I decided to rotate my own tires, but couldn't get the wheels off to do it.

Last year I bought new tires. Had the Ford dealer in Harvard do them because he was more conveniently located and I'm now truly pissed at both Chrysler dealers in the area. Ford did mount my new tires, and remarked that the rims were hard to get off and very rusty. They cleaned them and greased the wheels again to prevent them from rusting in place. The new tires were on all right, and I know they had to get the wheels off to do it. That was eleven months ago. But, the wheel won't come off now.

I missed my lunch date. I kicked and cursed and pounded it with a mallet. I sprayed penetrating oil where I could reach without hitting the brakes, tap-tap-tapped it hoping that vibration would help, but never got it off. Then came the rain, and I left the car on the jack and shoved everything else into the garage. It's still sitting out there, mocking me this morning. Searched the web for tips, found that I've already tried all of them except "Lie under the car and kick the stubborn wheel with both feet to get it off." No thanks. I don't need to knock 2800 lbs. of vehicle off the jack and have it crash down on top of me. That's a solution I can do quite well without.

This morning I went back to the barn and got my ten pound log splitting maul. It has a three foot handle, though there's not room under there to really swing it. I'm about to go out and attack the stupid thing seriously. I figure the wheel was leaking and needs replacement anyway, and the tire appears to be a total loss too, so if I can keep from damaging the brake rotor or axle, anything is fair game. If you hear that a berserk man was locked away in Illinois for attacking his car with a sledge hammer you'll know I lost the battle.

Engineers know that these parts are exposed to much water, mud, and road salt. (I don't even do off-road driving.) Can't they use some alloy that won't seize up this way? Or put a layer of teflon in there, or something? In a roadside emergency instead of an overnight driveway failure, this would be downright dangerous. Grrr...

Comments

[chibiabos.livejournal.com]

But, but, but ... domestic vehicles are teh #1 in the world! Your fellow Yankees will tell you so! There's nothing wrong with them!!!

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I guess either the log splitter looked too scary or the penetrating oil soaked in overnight. Two good whacks and the wheel popped off. Hopefully nothing was damaged except maybe the rim, which is a discard anyway.

Cleanup with wire brush and more grease to try to prevent another recurrence (fat chance, the track record is 100% now) and more penetrating oil to get the clips off that hold the hub cover, since the spare doesn't have any.

I'll have to order a replacement spare. Tire, wheel and all. And I think I'm going car shopping soon. Grr. When I bought this one, I wasn't driving to work. Now I am, and gas prices have more than doubled since then. True, 24 mpg isn't terrible, but it's not great either. I'd rather buy a light pickup truck, but given that my primary use is 16 miles to and from work each day, a high mileage compact car makes the most sense.

[chibiabos.livejournal.com]

Wish I could afford a new car :/

My folks are gonna try and bail me out and buy a used one for me in the $3k-5k range. Hopefully back to Honda, I miss the Honda I had ... my now dead Corolla has a lot more problems than the Civic I had for the same year.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Your cars have probably had a lot of miles on them before you got them, and likely a fair amount of abuse too. It's hard to judge the quality of the original product at that point. I had a Geo (Suzuki engine, American body I think) and it ran well for nine years. But in those nine years I only put 40000 miles on it. I hate driving as much as I hate cars. It did get 38 mpg. in city driving and better on the highway.

I traded it because I needed hauling capacity for the animals. I've liked the Jeep as a practical vehicle, but the service departments at three dealers have flunked my expectations for honesty and reliability. Subaru and Honda do seem to make good quality products, but there are no dealers within 25 miles of me so parts and service would be a headache when needed. The choices out here generally are Ford or Chevy. Period.

[pioneer11.livejournal.com]

Well written. I feel your pain.

*no sarcasm, I do*

I think salt is used because its cheap. Sand
probably works better. Building better roads
works even better. Making better, more durable
cars works even BETTER. But its all about the
money isn't it?

I had to get tires on my Ford Aspire last
year, about 130 all told.

My supervisor said she had to spend 800
on her truck. @.@

*bites his nails to the elbow and drives
slow with his new Chevy*

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Four tires were only $130? Jeez. Mine were almost $500. After I got the spare buckled on and the jack out I went around and checked. The other three were all about 2 pounds low. Probably all headed for the same problem.

People actually demand salt over sand because it appears to work more quickly. I agree that sand is better for many reasons. Out here away from the city, we see more sand and plow rather than just dumping salt onto the snow as they do in Chicago. Imagine the impact all those tons of salt would have on farm fields. I guess someone is still thinking of that.

I'm going to have to trade the Jeep. I hate buying cars, though, I really do. It's all so stupid.

[(Anonymous)]

As for tires...remember what a Ford Aspire is. A golf cart.

A real vehicle needs real tires.

^_^

[duncandahusky.livejournal.com]

"Lie under the car and kick the stubborn wheel with both feet to get it off."

Thanks for that moment of "Oh, he's not really going to...oh, OK. Whew." :-)

The salt is, sadly, a fact of life. The fact is, though, that when it gets really cold (like around late December or so), salt won't help. Really, all the salt does is lower the melting point of the water (snow). The reason they use salt even though it can be corrosive is because, quiet frankly, no other agent is as cheap, as effective, or as (relatively speaking) environmentally safe. It's still a bitch, though. Look on the bright side: you could live in North Carolina, where snow plows are unheard of and when it snows all they spread on the road is sand.

Oh, and you might want to check out http://www.tirerack.com for tires - they give great deals and can even deliver the tires to a local shop to have them installed.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know how salt works (or doesn't.) And I don't really consider it environmentally safe. It kills everything but the most stubborn of weeds, for instance.

Sand is good. They use that around here mostly, but you have to slow down to drive on it and city folks never want to slow down. Mostly I wouldn't care if there were no plows or only some roads got plowed. I'm of the opinion that heavy snow is nature's way of telling us to stop and reflect for a couple of days. All this "I just HAVE to get out and go somewhere" frenzy never has applied to me. Being snowed in is a pleasure generally.

One of my favorite road signs ever is at the point where IL176 westbound joins to IL47, makes a short jog north, and then continues west to Marengo. The sign was put up by the local 4H club I think. It faces traffic outbound from the metro-suburbs of Crystal Lake, Cary, Fox River Grove, etc. as drivers move into the rural part of McHenry County and on toward Boone County. It has a slow moving vehicle triangle on it, with the wording, "Now entering Farm Country. Slow down and watch out for this." Not that it helps, you should see them passing hay wagons and tractors even on hills and in no passing zones. But it's the thought that counts. Can't say we didn't warn you.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

Why would they want to increase reliability? This way they ensure that you spend more money on parts and labour when it fails...

Ugh, cars. Boss of shop spent £850 getting a 'service' on his last week, one of my best friends blew £450 getting a new gearbox last month, when it only went in to have a new wiper blade fitted and my mother was bled for £15,000 for a new one last year - it lost about 1/5 of its value the second she drove away in it.

There's a little rust on the chain of my bike, but a little WD-40 will take care of that. If not, then it's only 12£ to replace the chain, and I can do it myself. I understand the necessity of them for some people, and the ease that they bring to life for many others... I'm just not a fan. Like you and mobile phones, I must be one of the last people left that doesn't want one.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

And forgive the various £ markup errors - I'm tired. :P

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I don't really want to have a car either. In fact, unlike my peers, I was never anxious to learn to drive. My parents insisted (and probably wisely so) since in the US you have very few options without it unless you live in one of a few densely populated areas that have adequate public transportation.

Where I live now, you couldn't manage without a vehicle or someone nearby who was willing to take you shopping and to other necessary appointments at least occasionally. It's about four miles to the nearest food store, for instance, or the nearest medical care. And not being independently wealthy, I need to get to a place of employment. Not many opportunities in the nearest town (though they do have a small library, it has only one full time employee, I think) unless you want to work in the food store or a restaurant. I've done both, would rather not again. Nine or ten miles to the county seat, where there are more opportunities, but no way to get there from here without a car. And as it happens, when I was looking for a job in my field, their library was refusing to even interview anyone who didn't speak Spanish. I think they've given that up now, but at the time it kept me out. So my commute is 16 miles each way. Not as bad as it sounds, because it is mostly country roads with nice scenery and only the lightest traffic. But not suitable for bicycle or foot travel, at least not daily and certainly not in winter.

[bariki.livejournal.com]

Mm, I think that you fall into the 'i do not want to drive but must' catagory. That is one of the good things about being back in the UK - pretty much where ever I want to go can be reached using public transport. The sucky part about that here is that public transport is of rather low reliability, buses in particular, and frightfully expensive. Still, it's cheaper than having a car and paying £1 per litre for petrol. :P

[bariki.livejournal.com]

It helps if I log in, huh? :P

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do that too. ;P

[bariki.livejournal.com]

Cookies expired and I forgot to do a login. Oops. ^)^

[quickcasey.livejournal.com]

Hey, I doing this post in Linux Knoppix. (I went to the computer show today at the College of Du Page.) I forgot how neat Linux is.
Anyway, regarding your problem. Grease is not the answer. Go to the auto parts store, and get some Permatex Anti-Sieze in the grey bottle. It is made for just that porpose. Grease sort of does the same thing, but as you have found out, not quite. Over time grease fails to keep the parts from bonding.
Casey has spoken, you may all rise now.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

That's a very useful tip and I was hoping you might have something to offer. I'll see about getting some of that stuff to keep on hand. The tire has been changed for the moment, but I should now rotate them to make sure none are too badly stuck before winter sets in. And find out why the windshield washer isn't working. Blah.

I did wire-brush the rust off (surprisingly little of it, actually) and put all purpose grease on the contact areas before replacing the wheel.

Thanks!

[quickcasey.livejournal.com]

And don't forget to coat the lug-nut studs with anti-seize, as well.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

It's always nice to have advice from an experience mechanic. ;) My key to lug nuts is to have one of those cross shaped lug wrenches. I have yet to encounter a nut that won't come off with that and a jerk or two. Too bad you can't use it in closer quarters.

I'm always uncomfortable about tightening them, though. I weigh enough to put my weight into it and get them really tight, probably too tight. We have a torque wrench but it doesn't go as high as the amount recommended here. I always think about John Muir's (How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive) advice: "Two grunts is about tight enough." But that can vary a lot depending on how big and strong you are.

Oh, a thought. Is Permatex the stuff you use on spark plug threads too? If so, I think there actually is a bottle of it here somewhere. Have to joggle the mate, he's the one who owns most of the tools and stuff. Funny silvery looking stuff with an applicator brush in the bottle cap? I always used that on my Volkswagen spark plugs because he told me to, but I don't know what it's made of or what it's called. 'Tivo is a non-mechanic, obviously.

[quickcasey.livejournal.com]

I have both of John Muir's VW books. (He did one on Rabbits, too.) They are great, and a permanent part of my referance library.
Oh, yes, coating spark plugs on old VWs with anti-seize compound. In those days a must. Now they learned to make spark plugs out of a more aluminum friendly steel alloy. Not as likely to bond. Yes, brush in the cap, good stuff that.
If you have steel wheels, go and tighten them up. I would use a torque wrench on alloy wheels, however.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yup, we still have the Permatex bottle. Years of VW tuneups, and only about an eighth of it was used up.

Now if I had alloy wheels, they wouldn't have rusted up to begin with would they? Yeah, I went ahead and tightened the nuts up when I put it on. I figured I couldn't tighten it myself far enough that I couldn't get them off (famous last words, but I think the Jeep is gonna get traded soon for something else.)

I can't figure what happened with the tire. It was up to pressure on Thursday, and drove fine on Friday evening, but dead flat on Saturday. No sign of puncture, but some evidence that it was driven on while flat, which I can't figure out at all. Especially since it's driver side front, I couldn't have missed that. Anyway, I may see about putting a tube into it to keep it as a spare. It only had 8000 miles on it. I don't trust it for long term use, but to fill in for a sudden flat it couldn't be any worse than those doughnut things.

[quickcasey.livejournal.com]

Steel rusts, the alloy wheels oxidize, about the same thing, except instead of rust we all recognise, they get a white powdery residue that can cause the loss of air. Solution is the same, sand it off, paint/clearcoat it, and it will hold air.
Tubes work too.

[farhoug.livejournal.com]

I guess it's the same thing everywhere. When dealing with car repairs, always multiply the estimated time by three. Except on easy jobs, when the time should be multiplied by five. =)

Talking about winter driving, what about studded snow tires, are those legal around there in the wintertime?

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I don't think studded tires are legal here, but tire chains are. I've never used them, I prefer the four wheel drive. My previous car had front wheel drive, which is almost as good but won't get you out of deep drifts without shoveling.