Anime revisited one [last] time

[altivo]

I give up. I thought I'd give it one more try and I selected Wolf's Rain because of the animal and shapechanging elements. I was forewarned of the violence, so that doesn't enter directly into my reactions though it certainly didn't help.

Same problems. Story line is chopped up into poorly connected scenes that seem to be selected mostly to feature some idea that someone thought was either graphically or rationally exciting. The characters and their motivations are incomprehensible. Everyone is constantly full of anger and hatred, for no reason I can perceive (I've had the same reaction to most of the anime stories I've seen.)

The setting is bleak and depressing, the plot line holds out very little in the way of hope or solace, jeez, the people who write these things must live in a state of perpetual dark misery. It's Fritz Lang's silent film Metropolis, the same dark and depressing themes of oppression by a powerful and arrogant ruling class and hidden secrets among the proletariat, only clearly this story is never going to have a hopeful ending the way Lang's film did.

I think that's it for me with the anime. They just are never going to work for me.

Comments

[rjtremor.livejournal.com]

There are some that are very un-serious that make even less sense. *Chuckles* In all honesty, I like Wolf's Rain, though I don't go back to it too often. Maybe a couple of times. I'll watch an anime and then archive it. For the good anime, if you haven't seen it, Miyazaki, paws down. The anime of Metropolis was incredibly depressing for me, and Cowboy Bebop, another very good anime in its own right, is very dark, and while the end has good closure, it's depressing. Trigun is a good action anime with a lot of Western in it, though it's also dark. It's a good ending though.

Yes, I've watched too many of them.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I've seen several of Miyazaki's productions and, frankly, they don't get any raves from me either. I begin to suspect that all these people have ADHD, and I certainly do not. They also seem to suffer from near-terminal depression and hopelessness. I've seen enough that I can predict the plot action in advance, and know I'll find it stupid even before it happens.

Though I'm not an expert on Japanese history and culture the way my brother is, I certainly have considerable exposure for a westerner. Even with that, I just can't see the point of these films. They are like rubbing salt into self-created wounds.

[corelog.livejournal.com]

I'm not at all a fan of anime except for Digimon, Dragon Drive, Naruto, and FullMetal Alchemist. Mostly for the reasons you describe. Even Digimon can be a little somber sometimes and quick-paced unless you can pick up the mythology and help it out with your own educated guesses along the way.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

We have at least volume one of Naruto at the library... No, I think I'd better give it a rest. I'm starting to get actually angry at these things. I want to drag the writers and directors out into the sunlight and show them that the world isn't all dreary and hopeless yet.

[lobowolf.livejournal.com]

I'm very fond of Wolf's Rain, although it's about everything you described. I wouldn't call myself an anime enthusiast, but I do enjoy some of it. The more of it I watch, the more I like it. For me, it has certainly been an acquired taste.

I've found that the voice characterization can make a big difference in the quality of the story. Wolf's Rain, for example, I much rather watch with the dialogue in Japanese and using the English subtitles. If you enable the English dialogue, the voices aren't right and they use some really corny western idioms and expressions that don't fit the story at all.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I really enjoy some werewolf/transformation fiction that is told from the viewpoint of the therianthropes, and I had great hopes for this one. I managed to sit through the entire first DVD but I have no desire to see more, alas.

[daikitsune.livejournal.com]

Wolf's Rain is a dark and depressing Anime in some ways. Outwardly, it is filled with anger and conflict. On the inside, the story is one of companionship and grasping for a glimmer of hope within the hopeless. I find it to be a little heavy-handed at times, and a true struggle to watch due to how heart-wrenching it can be...Still, I enjoyed the experience it conveyed.

Anime tells its story as does a comic book, specifically manga. Looking at it from that direction may help clear up the way the scenes hop around. Most of the visual media we see in the states follows a direct timeline, with little jumping around...Maybe one or two main characters. Anime often doesn't take the most direct path to explain a story. It instead...hmm...maybe attempts to convey an experience more than a story.

Anime is not for everyone...Though it is a VAST genre. There's Miyazaki-esque anime, with nature-themes and bizarre seriousness. There are Dragon-ball sorts that deal mostly with action sequences, drama anime which could easily be live-action, sitcom anime that put their characters in different silly situations, Fantasy, Sci-fi, on and on.

Of course, central to a lot of understanding and enjoying anime is knowing about Japanese culture and society. Trying to digest anime without that will definitely give ya heartburn.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I have at least the basics of the cultural background and I don't think that's the source of my problem with it. True, comic books and graphic novels don't generally work well for me either. I much prefer epic style, whether it's Homer or Tolkien or Morris.

That this stuff should be popular in Japan is less surprising to me than its immense popularity in the US is. In fact, I find it downright worrisome now that I see its real nature. It feeds right into the aggressive angst of western adolescence and I don't mean that in a good way at all.

[goldenstallion.livejournal.com]

Dear Rider,

I often wonder... if all of this has something to do with the thousands of years until very recently (last century) of Japanese opression by ruling classes (Lords, Samuri...) that brings a long-held sense of feeling angry and hopelessness. Perhaps our Western lives have been much the same yet we found more hope. God? Democracy? New World?

Random thoughts but still, having lived in Japan and seeing a world lost in its past, never forgotten, never forgiven, always there... may have shown me a certain truth in what I am saying.

Imp

[altivo.livejournal.com]

The cultural elements are certainly strong. Though I find Buddhism the most hospitable of major religious thoughtlines (admittedly, Japanese native Shinto is truly bizarre and has nothing to do with that, but Buddhist philosophy is a major element in Japanese culture today) I don't come from the very hopeless and depressing view on that.

If I had the time, I'd be tempted to use the techniques and idioms of this genre to tell some very different stories than what they seem to all focus on. I think, though, there are better things to be done. ;)

[dogteam.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed Wolf's Rain at first, and went to some lengths to download it because that was the only way I could obtain it. Being on dialup, it was a chore.
I share your frustration with the genre (yes, even Miyazaki's stuff, though I find it beautiful and stimulating at the same time) mostly because of it's incomrehensible plots. I have wondered for a long time if it's a cultural gap; if it all is perfectly reasonable for those raised with different ideas and values.
The darkness of Wolf's Rain finally disturbed me enough that I didn't bother seeking out the last 4 episodes. (By that time, I knew that the ending would only depress me.)
I suppose that I suffer from the typical Western fault of wanting a happy ending, or at least a comprehensible closure of sorts.
(ponders)
I guess I would rather have seen it than not...for the reasons that you mentioned initially. But I think everyone watching something like that projects their own ideas and desires into it and thinks "...next, I would have thus and such happen, and heres a good spot for a touching moment between these characters...", etc., and in anime you are always thwarted by the odd direction that the plot...or non-plot...takes. Frustrating.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I don't have to see total closure myself, but my worldview is just not pessimistic enough to feel any empathy for these characters.

I'm impressed that you took the time and effort to download all this material over dialup. Maybe that would make me try harder to understand it, I dunno. All I had to do was put it in the Netflix queue. :)

[(Anonymous)]

You've tried Miyazaki, you've tried Wolf's Rain, and I think you've tried others... no one can say you haven't given anime a chance. I don't disagree with your observations at all. Admitted I reacted differently to them, but, at least with Wolf's Rain, it appeals to a darkness I kind of ... well, appreciate. (Not that it didn't have room for improvement, mind you.)

I wouldn't recommend you bother trying anything else, really. They'll either be like what you've already watched, or less likeable. I mean, not that I know everything there is to know about anime, but... like I said, you've given it a chance, and there's a lot more in the world you do like.

I have to say to the other commenters, you make some really good points.

[songdogmi.livejournal.com]

Oops, that anonymous post was me. I'm at Wolf's computer and forgot to log in first. <sheepish grin>

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Happens to me all the time, no problem.

Yes, I think that's about all the time I want to give to this issue. As I said above, it worries me that all this black depression and pessimism is so influential with western teens, but there's nothing much I can do about it.

[chibiabos.livejournal.com]

Did you ever try Mononoke?

[altivo.livejournal.com]

No, that one and Nausicaa are still remaining on the list I had put into Netflix, but I think enough is enough. I don't think I have enough ADD to appreciate these, let alone the internalized anger and desire for violence.

[farhoug.livejournal.com]

Wolf's Rain isn't quite the best candidate that would come to mind when speaking about good anime. It sure got its better points (especially the music), but it lacks consistency, and with my scatterbrain it's a bit hard to follow the storyline on that series.

I took a quick recount of the anime I have seen, and darkness seems to be common in most of them, the struggle and misery and all. I guess it has its own appeal, since those are the ones most talked about. But don't give up hope yet, try poking in to the not so mainstream flicks, there are some series that range from enjoyable to pure silly. =)

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Heh. My reaction to the first volume of Wolf's Rain is mostly that I could tell a much better story using the same premise and elements.

I made my selections based on what is available from Netflix, since I'm sure not in a hurry to buy these and downloading them over dialup would be truly frustrating. Probably that eliminates the less well-known series, but on the other hoof I was looking for some insight into the tremendous popularity of these things and that would seem to imply that I should look at the most popular ones. ;p

[margaras.livejournal.com]

I'm in the same boat as you, in that I'm not an anime fan in general. I consider it to be it's own media, not just a genre, as it crosses too many genres. Having said that, I do enjoy it on occassion. Princess Mononoke, for example, was quite good and I even prefer the professionally English dubbed version with our native talent doing the voices. For the cyberpunk genre, I think Ghost in the Shell 1 & 2 (I'm not a fan of the series Stand Alone Complex) are well worth checking out, mostly due to their ideas on perception and soul. My guilty pleasure is the vampire-hunting series Hellsing (sic), mostly for the theme-song. I actually did end up reading the manga that inspired the show, and I'm glad they ended where they did. It's violent, gory, but not really depressing, and character development is the focus of the show, mostly for the police woman turned vampire.

So, there's my 2 cents; anime for the non-anime fan. It can be enjoyable, like any other visual medium, if done right, with right being a very subjective thing.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

It's a big genre, or a microculture I guess. I've gotten more than my feet wet in it now and though I like swimming, this feels more like slogging through sticky, smelly muck. So I'm going to give up on it and turn to more fruitful pursuits. ;)

[hgryphon.livejournal.com]

Maybe you should watch Pokemon, then. Not depressing. Or YuGiOh GX...

Now I have to wonder, how many episodes did you watch before you came out with your verdict? ;)

[altivo.livejournal.com]

There were five episodes on the first DVD. That was enough black violence and hopeless despair for me, so it goes back and I'll cancel the rest.

I've had similar reactions to some western productions, Disney's Atlantis animations being among those. They just seemed like utter junk to me.

Pokemon is just silly, like cartoons for three year olds, in my opinion, so I'm not gonna pursue that, thanks.

[hrrunka]

I figure there's no point in giving a medium attention for its own sake. I watch, read or listen to things because I expect the story to appeal to me. If the story doesn't work for me the medium's not going to get much chance. How'd you get on with the original "Howl's Moving Castle" book?

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with you, adding the proviso that sometimes it does take a little study and effort to get into something. I figure now, though, that I've put enough effort into this one and I can do something more rewarding.

My mate read the Howl's Moving Castle book last week and concluded that it wasn't any better than the film, just different. I've read most of Jones' Chrestomanci stories and enjoyed them quite as much as Rowling, but I'm not sure I want to take this one one right now given his reaction. Generally I'm more selective than he is, so chances are I'll not be excited by it.

[pioneer11.livejournal.com]

That describes much of furry to me. Bleak and depressing. On the
other paw, coming from a literary background, I /have/ had some
amazing story like adventures with interesting people as if I was /in/
a story. But thats not the norm. Anime is fairly Japanese and they
have this "I will kill myself because I love my family and country"
vibe that goes back to...well Okinawa.

Though, Patlabor the Mobile Police did have a great story in it, it
wasn't furry.

The American style of furry is more reflective of our national ideals,
the good wins, the bad loses. Of course we've always won, even in
Vietnam. So the Japanese, creative and thoughtful, would reflect a
"desperate struggle against an overwhelming power and how you deal
with death and losing" thing.

I'd /like/ more good furry stuff that was upbeat and not childish.
Watership Down comes to mind, but not much else that isn't saturday
matinee stuff.

Of course, there are always books.

Oh Noes! We have to read!

^_^

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Reading is good. I try to promote it. ;p

I love the Watership Down film as much as I love the book. There are some other things that come to mind that are not just childish and that have the same degree of complexity and quality. Surely you've seen Balto 2: Wolf Quest? Or Spirit, Stallion of the Cimarron? Or (flawed but still magnificent in spite of that) Brother Bear? It can be done, it is being done, it just doesn't get top billing because there isn't enough violence, gore, and sex. I have high hopes for Over the Hedge but haven't seen it yet of course. As far as that goes, Madagascar wasn't just for kids and a good many of the elements were very much for adults.

[cabcat.livejournal.com]

Try for the ones that weren't "uber popular"

Wings of Honeamise
Porco Rosso is a good one just in terms of the airplanes
Ghost in the shell 1 and 2 are good in terms of the quality of the anime.

There's a lot of anime out there thats being brought to western markets, problem is a lot of it is absolute rubbish.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Heh, well yes, popular culture usually is rubbish when you get right down to it. I didn't really set out to study the whole of anime, though. I know it's a huge field with a lot of variations.

I wanted to find out why westerners are so attracted, and it seemed obvious that I'd have to look at the things that English speakers in particular have been watching. That's what I looked at, and I've only come away with the impressions recorded here.

[songcoyote.livejournal.com]

Heylo!

Very tired after a long convention weeked at which I was on Ops staff and things didn't always go well. No explosions, but not entirely smooth to say the least. Anyway....

Have you seen Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away? The former has a touch of the angst you speak of, but is a nice, reasonably coherent story with some absolutely beautiful scenery and delightfully "gray" (as opposed to black and white) morality. Spirited Away has even less angst and is a more fanciful tale with a happy and magical ending, and is definitely a coherent, non-ADD story. I like them both a lot, though I'm certainly not going to push them more than this if you've had trouble with Miyazaki before :)

In other news, did I say I'm tired from the long con weekend?

I thought of you in particular at con because I saw the cutest hand-made plush horsie in the Dealer's Room. Then I thought about pony boys, blushed, and moved on to find a present for a sweetie :)

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Which con was that? I blush at the idea of making you blush.

Princess Mononoke is still somewhere down my Netflix list and I may get to it eventually. Spirited Away I've already seen twice and like every other Miyazaki film I've seen with the sole exception of Kiki's Delivery Service I thought it was quite incoherent and bizarre, as if the writers were on some kind of drug trip while doing the script. This is particularly odd because I'm quite receptive to fantasy and dream stuff. Still, Miyazaki just doesn't make sense, and ADD is the best term I can come up with to describe how mis stuff makes me feel.

[ruwhei.livejournal.com]

Wolf's Rain is a spectacularly bad choice for you. Many people like it because it has werewolves and the artwork is especially detailed, however the storyline is typically bizzare and techical and, if I calculate correctly, not the kind of thing you like.

I think people should have known better than to recommend this to you. Digimon is too juvenile and has too many iterations to be of use; and Dragon Drive is rather dragon focused with a hefty dose of 'future technology'.

If there is any anime you may like from a plot perspective, it may be things like "Dear Boys", which is about high school basketball and the relationships of the team members. It has no plot weirdnesses and is not about the future or about crazy humor. It is a story about growing up and about becoming a man and about learning what's important in life. It has no slapstick humor or mallets or explosions. Its not depressing or joyful. It is simply life.

Anime with those themes may be more to your liking. At least more than the likes of the bizzare "Wolf's Rain", which I admit I did not particularly like that much.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Well, I thought it sounded good when recommended too. Werewolves interest me, but it was unintelligible. Even my mate, who has generally liked these more than I, thought it was unwatchable.