Sigh

[altivo]

It's amazing how people can go off on a rant about "religious freedom" when confonted with a violation committed by some group other than their own, such as the current incident in Sudan involving an English schoolteacher who allowed her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad" and was arrested, yet they can be quite willing to practice censorship against anyone who disagrees with their own personal biases.

I agree that the incident in Sudan is an abominable example of Shari'a law being used to violate the freedoms of non-Muslims. I agree that this should not happen and should not be tolerated by other nations. I agree that diplomatic action should be taken against Sudan for this abusive behavior.

However, I will say here, where I cannot be censored so easily, that Christian fundamentalists are just as bad. They are just as willing to abuse the freedoms of others in order to enforce their own narrow view of the world. You have only to listen to their fulminations to see that clearly stated. If the Christian right had its way with the US government, then teaching and study of evolution would be punishable by imprisonment or worse. Teaching and promotion of atheism or any non-Christian belief would be punishable by imprisonment or worse. Any visible evidence of gay or lesbian behavior or orientation would be punishable by prison or worse. Women might well be subject to arrest for wearing short skirts or other "inappropriate" clothing, while men might be arrested for having long hair.

If you think this would never happen, think again. Look at our own history. When conservative Christians have had clear control of government function, we have had such events as the Scopes trials, Jim Crow legislation, the Ku Klux Klan, and the Salem witch hunts. Conservative Christians overwhelmingly opposed emancipation of slaves, suffrage for women, and desegregation of schools.

Before anyone accuses me of "hating" Christians, let me say that I do not. But I believe in the truth. These things are true. They are in the history books written by BOTH sides. Jesus himself said "Before you try to remove the dust mote from your neighbor's eye, you must remove the log that is in your own."

Religion and government never mix well. Such a blend ALWAYS results in injustice and violation of freedoms.

Comments

well said

[vimsig.livejournal.com]

How long before we see the alluded to culture behind A Handmaid's Tale enacted for real in some US state - isn't enough that we have had to mentally shuffle 1984 from the science fiction section into non-fiction category.

No religion should find a place in politics

Re: well said

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately here in the US we have two very vocal and strong willed factions who aren't listening. One is the Christian religious right who are opposed to religion in government UNLESS it is their religion. Never mind that they themselves are fragmented into hundreds of warring denominations. The other is the patriotic right which does not stand for ANY criticism of the government. No matter how wrong headed or unconstitutional, it's THEIR country, right or wrong, and anyone who tries to criticize even in the most constructive of ways is automatically a traitor.

[bonnie-tiler.livejournal.com]

Hear hear!
I read about one of your candidates for Presidency, Hucka-something, republican.. pretty scary views for a man in that position

[zenicurean.livejournal.com]

Mike Huckabee is a dolt and his positions on things are generally stupid. His only claim to a decent candidacy is his George W. Bushesque folksy charisma.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

We can only hope that he doesn't actually get a nomination.

[schnee.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately these words are lost on the person who just banned me from their journal for suggesting that the Christian right is no better than the Islamic right in this respect. (And I don't think he's even a Christian himself, but he takes any criticism of conservative attitudes as unpatriotic and traitorous to the US.)

[wolfgrowl.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. The religious fundamentalists in the US scare me too.

It's worthwhile remembering that their enemy is not sin; the enemies of most organized religions are freedom and knowledge.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

You seem to have a similar faction in Canada, actually. They just don't wield quite as much power most of the time. I think I'd stay out of Alberta though. ;p

[zenicurean.livejournal.com]

...the Salem witch hunts?

Well, since we're pouring stuff from the 17th Century on "conservative Christians" today with the expectation it's somehow pertinent, lemme include a European perspective: The Thirty Years War, which Storm Thurmond may or may not have instigated. Major bloodshed, major cross-waving.

[chris-sawyer.livejournal.com]

If the conservative christains had their way, we would ALL be stuck in the 17th century.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Strom Thurmond was around ALMOST long enough to have been involved in the Crusades. But no.

However, today's Christian right in the US is in fact directly descended partly from those Puritans who promulgated the horrible witch hunts and executed people suspected of being gay or zoophile.

[dakhun.livejournal.com]

Religious fundamentalists of all stripes are equally reviled by religious moderates and the non-religious alike, due to the impossibility of reasoning with them and the severity of the punishments they dole out for every minor infraction.

You have my sympathies, hossy.

But I have to ask: Where did you get the idea that teddy bears and dolls are technically violations of Islamic law? I was trying to look this up, but nothing obvious came up on Google (except for this current news story).

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I'm relying on my degree in religious studies for that. Traditional Islam forbids, just as Orthodox Judaism does, the creation of "graven images" that represent god. Some interpret this to include images of the human body, which was made "in the image" of god. Some carried it so far as to forbid the representation of animals as well. Plants and flowers were always permitted, however, unlike Judaism which allowed only geometric ornamentation. The well known "arabesque" designs used in Islamic architecture exist because of this stricture.

There have been various levels of compromise and disagreement about this of course, from the level of the Taliban who destroyed irreplaceable archeological sites because they included statues (as did various Christian factions over the centuries) to the Muslims of Pakistan and Kashmir who made miniature paintings in manuscripts that depicted human figures in great detail but left the faces blank so as to avoid depicting what might be the face of god or the prophet.

Since enforcement and interpretation of Islamic law often comes down to the decision of one or two elders, it can be arbitrary and almost capricious. Anthropomorphic figures and, yes, human dolls and even photographs of humans have been ruled as blasphemous in some places and times.

[deffox]

I see the debate that led to this post. Considering other things said there the hypocrisy overflows at that location.

I agree that fundamentalists of both cited religions can be equal in their capability for evil.

Though I'm pessimistic about both religions making increasing inroads into government.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

If by "pessimistic" you mean that you don't think either religion will gain more power in government, I only hope you're right. The dystopia that would result otherwise is unthinkable for the US or any other Western nation. In Asia, and parts of Africa, however, there are many nations where Islamic or other fundamentalist obsessions do in fact have pretty much effective control of the government.

[heavens-steed.livejournal.com]

Fact: Most of the free nations in the world are primarily Christian on some level. The society and culture of most of western civilization was founded and based on Christian ideas and principles such as freedom, individual rights which are given by God, and the value of human life. Even Thomas Jefferson who was considered to be the least religious of the founding fathers wrote the words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their -Creator- with certain unalienable rights." It is primarily the nations that have been most strongly influenced by Christianity that are the most tolerant. The most brutal nations in the world are run by radical Islamic and atheistic regimes. In fact the only countries where Christians are not heavily persecuted are primarily Christian dominated countries!

Fact: Over 70 million Christians have been martyred in the last 2000 years, 65% of them in the last century making Christians the most persecuted of religious groups. In modern history, the biggest persecutors of Christians have been Marxist-atheism and fundamental Islam.

Fact: Hundreds of thousands of Christians are currently martyred every year, again, primarily by Muslims and Marxists. Millions more are denied basic religious rights like church and access to the Bible and threatened with imprisonment or sectarian violence.

Fact: Statistically speaking based on the demographics of the world-wide Christian population, the average Christian lives in a developing country, speaks a non-European language, and is subject to torture, rape, imprisonment, and death.

Fact: Many of the victims of all the historical atrocities of Christianity were in fact Christians, Christians who actually believed in the Bible and God as the ultimate authority instead of the Holy Roman Church or the Pope.

Fact: Christianity and Christians have contributed more and inspired more of the greatest works in art, literature, language, music, and other media. Modern science was born and thrived in religious societies and many of the greatest scientists in history were Christian or religious. Christianity has made vital contributions to science and scientific endeavors, and the realm of medicine and anatomy. The beneficial impact Christianity has had on culture and the world is incalcuable and surpasses the damage and negative impact it has had.

And this whole idea that we Christians would punish everything we disagree with death and imprisonment is nonsense. Yes, there are extremists out there that would definitely do such things, but there is no way the majority of Christians would advocate such things. There are a number of Christians who don't want evolution taught in schools but that doesn't mean they want people arrested or killed for it. That's ridiculous paranoid delusion and I've been around evangelicals my whole life practically, I would know. What you say has a grain of truth to it, but you are blowing things way out of proportion.

The Salem Witch trials was a very small and isolated incident involving around 50 people. Anti-religious people love this example but they completely exaggerate the significance of it.

[heavens-steed.livejournal.com]

continued...

Conservative Christians overwhelmingly opposed emancipation of slaves, suffrage for women, and desegregation of schools.

No, this is not true and is liberal propaganda. Christians were a significant influence in ending slavery. One classic example is William Wilberforce who was one of the most influential pioneers of anti-slavery who was influenced by John Newton, who himself worked on slave ships until he converted to Christianity which inspired him to turn from his way of life and write the famous hymn "Amazing Grace." Even the apostle Paul, who is frequently criticized for not denouncing slavery, advocated very strict moral standards for treating slaves that was quite radical for its time. The kind of slavery at that time was more like employment and different that the slavery Africans endured. Need I also mention people like Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr.?


Religion and government never mix well. Such a blend ALWAYS results in injustice and violation of freedoms.

Not true. The Church and the government will never mix. The whole point of the first amendment was not to keep religion away from society but to make sure the church did not also become the state. When the church becomes a single political entity, then it becomes corrupt and bad things happen. Religion and religious ideas, those of Judeo-Christianity specifically, have been an integral part of free government and society. Western civilization is what it is today because of religious people.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

The Salem hysteria was only one of many examples in New England history. It is just the largest and best known. Read Bradford's Of Plymouth Plantation for others.

Regardless of your list of facts, fundamentalist Christians are right now preaching loudly that the US government should be doing all the things I mentioned. I did not say ALL Christians by any means, but those who are most vocal and who deliberately seek to merge their religious views with government policy do seem to hold that particular extremist bent.

As for being around evangelical Christians, it is hard to grow up in the US without being around them. They are a minority, but a very vocal one and some are extremely abrasive about it. The highly visible ones do behave much as I have described it here.

[zenicurean.livejournal.com]

Okay, this I've got to grab on to even if it makes me a pedant.

Christians who actually believed in the Bible and God as the ultimate authority instead of the Holy Roman Church or the Pope.

This is not quite exactly how the theology of the Roman Catholic Church operates and it has never been how it operates. None of the RCC's assault theologians has ever went around saying the Pope outranks God or other Protestant propaganda BS like that.

[heavens-steed.livejournal.com]

Sorry to be the only one who disagrees with you. But I almost find this offensive because I wonder if you'd lump me in with the rest. What do you define as a fundamentalist Christian? Someone who believes in the Bible? I really hope you don't think I want people to die or be put in jail. We "Christians" people are not as monstrous as you, Chris Sawyer, and others would make out and I resent it.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Finrod, you have told me time and time again that you don't call yourself a fundamentalist. I take you at your word because I certainly can't prove otherwise. Only you can say.

I never once in this complaint referred to "Christians" in the generic sense. I was always specific about it, and I refer to the faction that seeks to "reclaim" political control of the US and state governments in order to enforce their particular policies based on their particular interpretation of religious faith. They seek to do this regardless of constitutional guarantees of freedom.

I do not have any reason to include you among those extremists, and I hope never to see any reason to include you.

[heavens-steed.livejournal.com]

God loves you, Tivo ^^ *hugs you*

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Perhaps, but I often think she has very strange ways of showing it in that case.

[vimsig.livejournal.com]

It is sad to see so many personalise about a debate on whether religion should have a place in governing a country. The initial posit here is that no religion should be allowed to interfere and/or distort politics in any country.

Faith is supposed to be a private, personal thing so all this conspicuosity that abounds, most notably in US and Middle East, is something of a different ilk entirely and should justifably be scorned, derided and smartly run away from as from any dangerously explosive commodity in the hands of the obsessed.

Let politicians deal with politics (preferably using ethical and logical reasoning) and let those who still wish to follow unenlightened paths do so in the privacy of their own homes.

As an aside - One thing I am not clear about is how is it permitable that so many muslim boys are called muhammad (or derisions thereof).

[vimsig.livejournal.com]

I'm sure I meant derivative there
;OP

[saythename.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that though I was very pro-war after 9/11
I always cautioned people to be easy on the "Kill the Muslims"
thing. Thats a sword that easily cuts all ways.

America was founded by guys who'd seen what one Queen could
do against another if Catholic or Protestant, one of the
main reasons for the seperation of church and state. And yes,
before anyone starts, I know thats not in the Constitution, but
it is in the Federalist Papers. I think Jefferson brought up
the idea. The idea being, theocracies produce awful things,
witness England and Europe two hundred years ago or the
Middle East and Africa now.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Precisely my point. It doesn't matter what the religion is, when you mix it with government the result is inevitable: repression, injustice, even genocide and warfare. To condemn the behavior of theocracies based on Islam while ignoring the similar behaviors of theocracies based on Christianity or Judaism is, quite simply, hypocrisy.