BloatedOffice.org

[altivo]

Gary sent me a note asking for the latest version of OpenOffice (3.0, new release) for his PC. Since we have only dialup at the farm, I download long files at work instead.

I've been growing more and more irritated with the bloat being added to what was once a useful product, and this release is the last straw for me. I won't be installing it on any of my own machines. I will go ahead and get it for him, because what he does is his business when it comes to the computer. (He still uses Windoze, too.)

Version 3.0 of OpenOffice (English, Windows OS) requires 142 MB just for the installer. I'm sure once installed it probably takes over 200 MB of disk space. And what did they add? A bunch of graphical junk. New splash screen. Slider to enlarge or reduce font size, etc. Sorry, I'm not impressed, and I have better uses for both disk space and CPU cycles.

OpenOffice was originally supposed to provide the functionality of MicrosoftOffice but without the unnecessary bloat or license fees. Well, it still has no license fees, but it is rivaling the MS product in terms of pointless bloat. I suppose next they'll have talking paperclips too.

For the opposite of bloat, some might like to take a look at MenuetOS, which is an OS replacement for Intel and AMD based machines. Still under development, but it does have a stable release. This is a graphical environment, mouse driven, and all that. It is NOT Linux or Windoze, but a completely separate development line. Apparently the entire OS kernel and modules are written in assembly language. The OS itself is hyper fast, and impressively small. (The entire OS fits on a single floppy diskette, graphical interface and all.) It has network connectivity and supports VESA-compatible display cards. The only major drawback right now is the lack of application software. There is a C programming environment though, so perhaps more will be forthcoming. There seems to be no web browser or e-mail client, for instance. Alas, we learn the interests of the actual developers from the applications they are distributing: all of them are games. A basic web browser, e-mail client, and word processor/spreadsheet application would make this a dynamite environment for tiny portable machines though. It is released under a GPL type license, too.

Comments

[schnee.livejournal.com]

I've given up on OpenOffice, too - for all I can tell, they want to be a MS Office replacement, and little more. Granted, one that's free (as in beer and/or speech), but still an MS Office replacement, with all that entails.

And I don't see that changing as long as Sun continues to maintain its iron grip on the whole thing: they don't want it to be anything else, so a second Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox story is unlikely. It's pretty sad really, but that's the way it is.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

It's funny. Back when it was "StarOffice 5" I actually paid Sun for a copy of it because it ran on Linux and could read and write MS formats. At that time it was pokey slow because it was all interpreted code and on a P1 processor it just crawled. I gave up on using it because it was so agonizing.

When OpenOffice 1.1 came out, it was stripped back and much faster to run. By the time 1.2 or 1.3 arrived, I had a faster machine too, and it became actually pleasant to use. Now it's headed back in the other direction. Bah! Next we'll be hearing that their key analysts and coders have been hired on by Microsoft, since they're already cued in on the proper philosophy and style.

Like Microsoft, as the processors have speeded up and memory has become less of a constriction, OO has just gobbled up all the resources they can get their hands on. "What, you wanted to use your machine for something else? What's wrong with you?"

[schnee.livejournal.com]

Mmm. Was it actually Sun back then? I remember getting a test/trial version of StarOffice 5.0 from some computer magazine in the early 90s, but that really was a long time ago - it came on a 5.25" disk, and it didn't even have (semi-)WYSIWYG, so things like "bold" and "italic" and so on were indicated by different colours in a text-mode interface. *s* IIRC, it was produced by a Hamburgian company then - Star-something, I think -, and Sun only came much later, although I'm not 100% sure anymore. I should probably look it up again...

But yeah, that seems to be exactly the direction they headed in and are still heading in.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Whatever that was, it wasn't Star Office 5. It may have been a much earlier predecessor. In fact, it sounds like Word Star to me (which I used happily for years.)

No, Star Office was indeed from Sun, and It was terribly, terribly GUI. In fact, it hid the entire desktop while running and tried to replace it with its own desktop that looked more like Solaris.

[schnee.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, it wasn't Wordstar (although Wordstar 5.0 was the first word processor I used, and - to date - the only one I really liked, too). :)

Anyhow, checking the German Wikipedia entry, this must've been StarWriter 5.0, from 1990. :)

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I'm not amused with LJ's latest bug either. This is the second time that my Tess icon has been replaced with someone else's Johnny Dep garbage. Last time it corrected itself after a day or so. I wonder how long it will be messed up this time...

[shadow-stallion.livejournal.com]

What is this bug you speak of? I have not noticed any odd icon stuff recently.

I have pondered trying OpenOffice but until I am forced to get rid of my shadily licensed copy of MS Office 2003 then I will likely just stick with that. I hear you on the bit about disk size bloat but in the day and age of TB HDDs is that really an issue anymore? I would be more concerned about processor usage.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

And I did say that processor usage bugs me more. Even on a P4 at 2.8 GHz, OpenOffice does NOT load quickly, and I'm sure it grabs all the RAM it can get and probably causes plenty of page faults in operation.

In my experience, the really large disk sizes are still much more unreliable and overpriced than smaller ones. If I can still load Linux and all the apps I need into a 2 GB drive (and I can, easily) then I'm not laying out money for a less reliable 600 GB drive. ;p Actually, you can hardly buy 2 GB drives any more, of course, but the 80 or 160 GB sizes are cheap and seem to run forever for me without any problems.

Since I don't download or accumulate video or audio files, my drives are looking pretty empty. Still, I'm not giving up half my space to crap I'll never use, which is what OO has become.

The icon thing is some problem they are having with their database references. Probably a pointer that overflows or something. It causes random or seemingly random substitutions of unexpected user icons, and the one I have that's a photo of my mare Tess keeps getting displayed as other random things. Some days it's fine, others it's not.

[shadow-stallion.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Nice to hear that you are able to load Linux and all the apps in about 2GB. Works for you but if I tried to switch to something else I might as well try to learn Latin. ;)

Can't say that I have had any better or worse luck with big drives as opposed to the smaller versions. Time will tell I guess. I think the biggest one I currently have is around 250GB with my laptop having something like 160.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

You only think that using something else would be hard.

Remember I swapped Linux for Windows on about 20 machines here a couple of years ago. Staff and library users alike screamed that they wouldn't know how to use it. However, most of them never figured out which machines had Linux and which had Windows. The differences to the end user are that small now. The obvious ones? No more Internet Explorer, you have Firefox. The "Start" button doesn't necessarily say "Start" but it can if you insist. No more MS Office, you get Open Office (again, most users can't even tell they were switched) and no Outlook (but really, with all the security issues it has, most of us dumped Outlook quite a while back,) you get Thunderbird or another e-mail program.

[shadow-stallion.livejournal.com]

I will tell you basically the same thing that I would tell anyone who tries to convince me to use a MAC. I have to use something that I am comfortable with and have knowledge of. I have seen plenty of 'I am having trouble with X' from people concerning all types of computer environments. There is no perfect world in computing, simply things that work best for each of us.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Sure, I'm not trying to get you to change, merely challenging your assertion that it would be difficult for you.

[shadow-stallion.livejournal.com]

Perhaps difficult is the wrong word but it would certainly be a challenge. I had enough trouble when I pondered dumping Vista and going back to XP on my laptop. Upon discovery that the drivers were either hidden or non-existent I decided to scrap that idea.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

That's rather a different sort of problem. Yes, Microsoft is doing its best to stick everyone with Vista and no way back.

If the laptop had XP originally, then the drivers should be available from the manufacturer web site. If it came with Vista on it, you may have no choice.

[shadow-stallion.livejournal.com]

Laptop came with Vista and it will remain that way. Not in love with it but I get by. It hasn't made me run screaming into the night....though I have come close. ;)

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I only buy new machines with no operating system on them, and then install the one *I* choose. Generally prevents that sort of BS.

[soanos.livejournal.com]

I personally don't think Linux is too difficult. I am sure it takes a lot of tinkering in the beginning to get to working it the way you want it to, but after that, you can pretty much close the bonnet and never have to worry about it. :)

I have OpenOffice.org myself, but I am not realy keen on upgrading to next version unless I have to.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Mostly, that's true. Though when your kernel version gets too old, then the newer applications don't work for you any more and you have to upgrade something. Used to be that meant reinstalling the whole mess, which I've done a couple of times.

Nowadays, you don't have to go through that, though. Version control and update programs like Synaptic/Aptitude for Debian or Ubuntu and Gslapt for Slackware have made it much easier.

[deffox]

I've had 120MB drives fail on me though. :-P

Top of the line drives tend to fail quicker because they have more platters and run hotter. From one generation to the next shouldn't be significantly different though.

The 1TB drives initially had five double-sided platters in them. The newer models coming out now have gotten it down to three double-sided platters.

Getting the lowest capacity drive built with current tech tends to run the coolest. So a modern 120GB drive should use one single-sided platter and have the fewest parts to break.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Actually I've not had a drive failure in my own equipment since the days of MFM designs and 20 meg drives. But everyone else is complaining about losing drives all the time. When I ask, usually it's some gimongous 500 GB thing, which of course hasn't been backed up because it's so hard to back up huge datastores. I've seen a fair number of smaller drives fail on machines at work, but they get a lot of abuse too.

[deffox]

I've lost several over the years. The most failed capacity was 60GB, but I also lost 120MB, 2GB, 40GB, and 160GB drives. Usually it's in a family computer rather than my main machine. Luckily only one time was the data loss significant since I bug them to backup (or for the parents do it myself).

I run RAID-1 to supplement my backups now. At the moment my main computer has a set of 320GB drives, plus a non-RAID 500GB. I should be set until I get a new camera with an HD movie mode.

[schnee.livejournal.com]

Count yourself lucky... I think every single drive that came between my 31 MB MFM drive (exclusive) and whatever I had later on in the ~40-80 GB range (again, exclusive) failed. :P Including, at least, a 120 MB drive, a 510 MB drive, and a 4.3 GB drive.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it's entirely luck. More likely it's a combination of my computer usage habits and careful selection of hardware brands, combined perhaps with some luck. Since I tend to buck the popular stream and avoid graphics laden stuff and go with old-fashioned applications, the impact on the I/O system is far less over time.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

The icon issue is described here right at the top of the page.

[deffox]

It does have one potentially useful feature. Being able to read Microsoft's latest change in file formats to try and force people to upgrade. 3.0 supposedly can read .docx files.

Ideally the market would just completely refuse to use the new MS formats, but I doubt it.

I'll stick with my slow rollout of OpenOffice. It still meets my goals of MS compatible while avoiding the MS tax.

I don't get too excited over 200MB when CD burning software pushes 800MB and games 8GB.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

The issue for me isn't so much the disk space (though that matters too with notebook computers and such) as it is the drag on performance. All that crap does nothing for me in terms of productivity, but it just takes too damned long to load the application and get it going.

So far, .docx isn't flying very well around here. One library in the consortium is using it, and after many complaints, they have quit trying to send files around in that format and learned to save them as 97/2000 compatible instead. The rest of us are sticking with the 97/2000 .doc format.

As for myself, I'm using ABIWord or just a text editor for my own writing. I think it's pitiful that Microsloth has convinced so many people that using a dozen fonts and having a brain dead spelling checker is a substitute for clear and effective writing.

[deffox]

I only use the full blown office programs for business or spreadsheets. For other things like archiving email I use regular .txt files. I don't want to have to convert the files every few years.

My most recent version of MS Office is 2000. I never seen any productivity gains in versions after that. But as mentioned I'm slowing changing the computers over to OpenOffice as they get reformatted or replaced.

[redcardlion.livejournal.com]

I use, believe it or not, lyx for my writing. It does all the formatting, and everything.. and leaves me just writing. It's impressive. If you're a writer and you've not taken a look at it, I'd advise giving it a run :)

[altivo.livejournal.com]

I'm aware of lyx, but it's overkill for me.

I actually do a fair amount of writing on an old TRS-80 model 100. Portable, much longer battery life than the typical modern laptop or notebook with its hi-res color display, and it has a real, full size keyboard. Chapters are offloaded to a portable floppy disk as needed, and an aggregator program on the mod 100 is able to display the parts in sequence as if they were a single document, or print them if necessary.

The keyboards on modern notebook computers drive me up the wall. They're all non-standard and undersized. Worse, the keys don't travel far enough to give satisfactory feedback. ;p

[redcardlion.livejournal.com]

Have you seen the Alphasmart line?

That might interest you. I have one as well. They're spiffy.

http://www.renlearn.com/neo/

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Seen 'em. Keyboard is still unacceptable, and the price is, well, unnecessary for my needs.

[duskwuff.livejournal.com]

OpenOffice seems to be emulating Microsoft Office quite effectively in that respect... There's a reason I've taken to doing everything in L^AT_EX.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Well, if you really need all those bells and whistles. ABIWord is more than adequate for ordinary word processing documents.

[duskwuff.livejournal.com]

You'd be surprised how effective and easy to work with it is for unformatted text, actually. Once you've got a template to work from, you can pretty much just type plain text into it - the only formatting bits you have to keep in mind are quotes (`` ''), dashes (-- ---), and paragraphs (one blank line between them).

It's handy as all get-out for math homework and whatnot, too.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sure it's easy enough. It's just a lot more than I need to bother with.

[toumal.livejournal.com]

Still, I'm glad 3.0 is out at last. I really need the latest MS compatibility changes they've added because I use OO at work a lot.

And no, the only alternative - Microsoft Office - is exactly what I want to avoid. You think 140 megabytes is big? Well that's still awesome compared to MS-Office, and they can add a LOT of bloat to OO before it even comes close to the slowness and weight of MS-Office.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Heh. I use OO at work too. Fortunately, I also control the version of MS-Office used by the die hard Windoze folks, so they are stuck at the Office 2000 level.

[jairus-greywolf.livejournal.com]

I hate bloatware. Why don't these software companies actually poll their users as to what features they would like to see added including the possibility of just leaving it alone instead of just adding all this crap that hardly anyone uses?

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Well, I suspect that what happens with something like this is that in fact they are doing whatever users ask for. So if one or two users want colored "skins" or a slider to enlarge and reduce fonts, someone says "OK, we'll do it." In other words, there's a lack of focus and coordination.

Plus, Microsoft keeps enlarging their own product in order to have stuff no one else has, and Open Office keeps trying to copy them. Software isn't about function any more, when it comes to desktop PC users. It's about "gee whiz" and designer displays. The equivalent of tail fins and chrome.

[soanos.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I think I have a module of PAgefox for Commodore 64... It is a WYSIWYG publishing proggie for Commodore 64 computers.

I am a retro freak, sorry. :)

MenuetOS sounds good, might try it out one day, but I'd rather have some apps for it first. An OS without applications is not much of an OS.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Try MenuetOS just to see it. I'm impressed. You just have to download a floppy disk image and use dd to write it to a blank floppy. Boot from the floppy to see the OS demo.

I was wrong, there IS a web browser for it. I haven't tried it, but it's called "httpc".

I really liked ProWrite on the Amiga, myself. I also used to be able to use WordStar practically in the dark without a monitor (figuratively, anyway.) Wysiwyg is much overrated in my opinion, and just encourages people to play around with fonts and formatting rather than getting their writing to the clear and concise stage.

[hellmutt.livejournal.com]

I hear good things about AbiWord as an alternative to OO Writer.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yup, AbiWord works fine if you just need a word processor. It's not quite as good at converting files between formats and catching all the fine points that can be found in .doc or .rtf files, but for ordinary manuscripts it's more than adequate and quite a bit slimmer and speedier than OO.

[cabcat.livejournal.com]

You can't make a one size fits all office type program without bloat. That's the problem they've tried to make a generic program for everyone.

[altivo.livejournal.com]

Yep. And Microsoft does it in order to sell product. OpenOffice doesn't sell theirs, so it makes no sense for them to just ape Microsoft instead of showing that it can be done in a better way.